As I said last time, before I get into all the nuts & bolts detail of the handloads (which I will do below), let me summarize what I learned for those who aren’t into the geeky stuff. Please note all of this is VERY TENTATIVE, based on this second set of experiments!
- Going to a tighter crimp pretty much solved the problems I had encountered the first time with bullet separation in the Boberg. This time I only had one partial separation, in a 230gr bullet.
- Likewise, going to shorter O.A.L. (Over All Length) for most of the loads eliminated most problems I had experienced with feeding.
- These factors, combined with some different power levels, have put me on the right track to developing a ‘true’ .45 Super load (something which is actually more than just a .45 ACP +P).
To re-iterate: Coming up with a hand load is more art than science, since there are many different factors to consider: type and amount of propellent (gunpowder), weight and profile of the bullet chosen, the overall length (O.A.L.) of the final cartridge because the depth of the bullet seating changes the case capacity and hence the pressure profile, what type and degree of crimping, and the type of primer used.
Here are the numbers, in the same format as last time for easy comparison. Once again, let me note that these are experimental loads, and you choose to use the information here entirely at your own risk, without endorsement from me:
Titegroup powder Bullet O.A.L.* Glock 21 (5.0″) Boberg XR45 (3.75″)
6.7gr 185gr XTP 1.175″ 1050fps 970fps
7.3gr 200gr RNFP 1.250″ 1000fps 925fps
6.3gr 230gr RNFP 1.250″ 950fps 900fps
HP-38 powder Bullet O.A.L.* Glock 21 (5.0″) Boberg XR45 (3.75″)
7.2gr 185gr XTP 1.175″ 900fps 840fps
7.2gr 200gr RNFP 1.250″ 900fps 830fps
6.8gr 230gr RNFP 1.250″ 860fps 790fps
Longshot powder Bullet O.A.L.* Glock 21 (5.0″) Boberg XR45 (3.75″)
10.0gr 185gr XTP 1.200″ 1100fps 1025fps
9.5gr 200gr RNFP 1.250″ 1010fps 910fps
9.0gr 230gr RNFP 1.250″ 1020fps 960fps
Curiously, while generally going to a shorter O.A.L. (meaning that the bullet was seated deeper) resulted in the expected increase in velocity, there are a couple of instances where that didn’t happen. I’m not sure how to explain it — could have been an data reporting error on my part (or from the chrono) either this time or last time. Or it could have been not having a large enough sample size. Or it might have some variation in the handloads made for either batch of tests. I just don’t know.
But I’m not going to worry about it overmuch. Now that I seem to have resolved the separation and feeding issues, and seem to be getting good numbers, I am going to build off of these results. That means slight increases in propellant levels so that I surpass published performance numbers for .45 ACP +P. Because of my previous tests, BBTI formal testing, and published numbers for .460 Rowland, I have an upper bound for how the Glock will handle the loads safely and there’s still a lot of leeway before I start pushing those bounds.
One step at a time.
Oh, and I continue to be happy with how the XR45-S is performing. I am still waiting on some “Generation 2″ magazine springs, which I think will eliminate the last of the problems I was having with feeding.
Over the course of the Christmas holiday weekend we had some unseasonably warm and pleasant weather, so I decided to go out to the range and test the first in a series of experimental hand loads I had developed for my new Boberg XR45-S. Since the XR45 is rated for the .45 Super cartridge, these loads were intended to start at about the power level of a .45 ACP+P load to give me a baseline, which I can then build up from there. I wanted to do this because there are actually very limited commercial choices in the .45 Super cartridge, and even less in the way of good testing or reloading data (which is one of the reasons why we’re going to be doing the BBTI chop tests on that cartridge in 2015 as I’ve previously mentioned).
Now, before I get into all the nuts & bolts detail of the handloads (which I will do below), let me summarize what I learned for those who aren’t into the geeky stuff. Please note all of this is VERY TENTATIVE, based on this first set of experiments!
- The ballistic performance ‘sweet spot’ seems to come in a 200gr bullet loading, in terms of how much loss comes from a shorter barrel (the difference between the 3.75″ XR45 barrel and the 5.0″ Glock 21 barrel I used for comparison.
- I consistently had problems with not having a tight enough crimp on the rounds at these higher power levels over a lower power standard .45 ACP practice loads. This makes sense because the slide would be moving faster with the higher power loads, leading to more problems with bullet separation.
- I had problems with a 185gr jacketed hollow point bullet that I didn’t have with either the 200gr or 230gr round-nose bullets. And the problem seemed to be worse with the Hornady XTP JHP bullet than in factory loaded JHPs I have tried. This *might* be due to the increased ‘throat’ size of the XTP in comparison to other brands. Maybe.
Now, about my hand loads. These were all figured based on a variety of sources and my own experience and experiments in creating loads for the .460 Rowland in 2013, since, as noted, there is very little good information readily available for the .45 Super. And while I wanted to try to start at about .45 ACP+P power levels, I wanted to be fairly conservative in doing so, just to be safe. Coming up with a hand load is more art than science, since there are many different factors to consider: type and amount of propellent (gunpowder), weight and profile of the bullet chosen, the overall length (O.A.L.) of the final cartridge because the depth of the bullet seating changes the case capacity and hence the pressure profile, what type and degree of crimping, and the type of primer used. I decided to just use all one type of primer (a fairly standard one) as well as the same amount of light crimp, to help reduce the number of different factors. I also decided to pretty much standardize the O.A.L. though you will see some variation in the Longshot loads. Like I said, it’s more art than science, and you have to start someplace.
OK, here’s a table showing the different loads and how they performed. These are experimental loads, and you choose to use the information here entirely at your own risk, without endorsement from me:
Titegroup powder Bullet O.A.L.* Glock 21 (5.0″) Boberg XR45 (3.75″)
6.5gr 185gr XTP 1.175″ 990fps 900fps
7.3gr 200gr RNFP 1.275″ 1100fps 1070fps
6.3gr 230gr RNFP 1.265″ 1020fps 970fps
HP-38 powder Bullet O.A.L.* Glock 21 (5.0″) Boberg XR45 (3.75″)
6.8gr 185gr XTP 1.175″ 600fps 560fps
8.0gr 200gr RNFP 1.275″ 920fps 850fps
6.8gr 230gr RNFP 1.265″ 840fps 770fps
Longshot powder Bullet O.A.L.* Glock 21 (5.0″) Boberg XR45 (3.75″)
10.0gr 185gr XTP 1.250″ 1020fps 960fps
9.0gr 200gr RNFP 1.250″ 1070fps 1010fps
8.0gr 230gr RNFP 1.275″ 980fps 880fps
*O.A.L. = Over All Length
OK, that’s obviously ‘warts & all’, following the same openness that we have done in the formal BBTI tests. I’ve only been back into reloading for about five years, and still have a hell of a lot to learn — as you can see from how badly underpowered the HP-38 loads turned out.
But it’s a decent start. I’m going to spend some more time thinking about the next step, see what additional research and comments suggest (feel free to offer your opinions!). The .45 Super loads available from Buffalo Bore are about 10-20% more powerful than these base loads, so I still have a ways to go in finding the right mix. Given the problems I was having with bullet separation (where the mechanical action of the Boberg causes the case to jerk away from the heavy bullet), the first step is probably to increase my crimp, and see what that does to the velocity (since a strong crimp will cause a greater pressure build-up before the bullet is released). I may also see what seating the bullets deeper does (meaning that the O.A.L. will be less, and again there will be a great pressure spike).
Wish me luck.
I’ve written about the innovative Boberg Arms XR9 previously. Here’s the take-away from my review:
This gun is a winner. It is well designed, and well made. The innovative design makes your brain hurt when you first see it. But the recoil is nothing like what you get from any other “pocket gun”, even when shooting full +P defensive ammunition. Usually with a pocket gun, you trade off the pain of shooting it a lot for the convenience of being able to carry it easily. With the Boberg, you don’t have to make that trade-off. I honestly wouldn’t be bothered at all by running a couple hundred rounds through this gun at the range.
Well, guess what followed me home today.
No, not an XR9. Something a little … bigger:
Yup, one of the new XR45s.
Here’s a pic of one from my outing with the other BBTI guys a few weeks ago:
It’s a little hard to tell how big the gun is in that pic. Here it is with some others:
Here’s the Boberg back to back with the Steyr:
With the EMP:
And with the J-frame:
And just for grins, here’s the Boberg with the J-frame sitting right on top of it:
Yeah, the 6+1 Boberg is actually smaller than the three other compact pistols. And it has a longer barrel than all three — 3.75″ on the Boberg, compared to 3.5″ in the Steyr, 3.0″ in the EMP, and 1.875″ on the J-frame.
How does it do this? Because of the innovative … some would say just plain weird … way the feed mechanism works. For the best explanation, take a look at the animation on the Boberg homepage, but basically as the slide comes back, it grabs a new cartridge out of the magazine by the rim and then positions it into the chamber. Yeah, you put the bullets in the magazine nose first. Like this:
And here’s a detail of the top of the loaded mag:
It takes some getting used to, I admit.
Now, while the Boberg is actually smaller in overall size than the other guns, it still has some heft to it: 22 ounces, as opposed to both the Steyr and the EMP at 26. The J-frame shown is a Model M&P 360 with the Scandium frame, so it comes in under 14 ounces. All of those are unloaded weight.
How does it shoot? Like this:
“Not bad at all.”
That was with .45 ACP+P high-end self-defense rounds. And the Boberg is actually rated for .45 Super, a cartridge which is dimensionally the same as the .45 ACP, but which is much higher pressure, about 30% greater than even +P … which almost takes it into .460 Rowland territory in terms of the ballistics.
Since I just got mine, it will take a while to find out all the little quirks that it has. But based on shooting one a few weeks ago, and in a much longer session with the 9mm version, I have little doubt that I will be very pleased with it. I’ve already poked around my selection of holsters, and found that the XR45 fits perfectly into a little belt slide holster I have for my Glock 21 Gen 4, as well as into a Mika Pocket Holster I use for the J-frame.
Oh, and since now a couple of us have these, guess what cartridge we’re going to test sometime next year? Yeah, the .45 Super. And since the barrel is the same as for the .45 ACP, we’re going to revisit that cartridge and test a selection of new ammo. So, something else to look forward to!
A friend dropped me a note, after looking over my previous experiments with putting .460 Rowland load power into .45 ACP cases, and asked a fairly simple question: Do you think that the case walls are actually thicker in the .460 Rowland?
Now, I have read several articles over the years which mentioned that the .460 Rowland cases were “stronger” with others saying that the cases were “thicker”. In fact, in the blog post cited above, I myself said:
Even shooting them in a gun designed to handle .460 Rowland power was risky, since the .45 ACP cases do not have the same strength as the .460 Rowland cases.
But is that actually true?
Good question. My Lyman 49th Edition Reloading Handbook doesn’t give case wall thickness for the .45ACP, and doesn’t list .460 Rowland at all. A quick check online also didn’t turn up any case wall thickness specs for either cartridge. As noted above, there are some gun writers out there who claim that the .460 Rowland case has thicker walls “for strength” but this claim isn’t made on the 460Rowland.com site that I could find.
So, being the data-curious guy that I am, I decided to just take some measurements and see what I found.
The only .460 cases I have are all Starline brass (I ordered 500 from them, and supplemented with other brass from factory Buffalo Bore ammunition – again, all of it marked as Starline), and I went through and checked a bunch with my simple calipers. Now, those calipers aren’t the pincer type, just the standard parallel-jaws type, so I only trust the measurements to about halfway down the case. And they all fell into a range of wall thickness from 0.0012″ to 0.0014″.
Doing the same measurement with ten different ‘marked’ sets of .45 ACP brass I also have readily to hand, the results were almost identical, with the vast majority of cases being 0.0012″ or a thousandth of an inch on either side of that. It didn’t matter whether the cases were nickle-plated or marked “+P”. The ‘marked’ brass was as follows:
- Cor Bon +P
- Federal Brass
- Federal Nickle
- Speer Brass
- Speer Nickle
And when you stop to think about it, there would be no reason or way for the case walls to be significantly thicker in the .460 Rowland cartridge, and still allow you to use standard .45 ACP reloading components and dies. If the case walls were substantially thicker, then you’d have to have slightly smaller bullets, if nothing else, and would probably need a different resizing die and/or neck expanding die.
Also, when I was conducting those experiments last summer, I didn’t note any differences in how the .45 ACP cases looked or functioned (when being reloaded) after being shot with .460 Rowland power loads.
My conclusion? That the .460 Rowland cases are no thicker walled than .45 ACP cases. They may still be “stronger”, if there is some metallurgical difference, but I doubt it. The real difference is in whether or not the chamber of the gun in which the ammo is being used is strong enough to handle the much-greater pressure of the .460 Rowland loads. Because remember, the maximum pressure for standard .45 ACP is just 21,000 PSI, and 23,000 PSI for .45 ACP +P — while the .460 Rowland cartridge reaches pressures of 40,000 PSI.
Of course, there are additional factors to consider (like recoil and timing) with the .460 Rowland cartridge, so you can’t just make the chamber of the gun stronger and then start putting those kinds of loads into .45 ACP cases. And you really wouldn’t want to accidentally put such power into a ‘normal’ .45 ACP gun — that could lead to catastrophic failure of the gun, and result in serious injury or death. So it still makes ALL KINDS OF SENSE to only load the longer .460 Rowland cases with that much power.
Some weeks back I put up a post about my preliminary experiences with a .460 Rowland conversion for my Glock 21 Gen 4. In it I mentioned how much I like the resultant gun, but also how I was having some problems with magazine wear when shooting full-force .460 loads.
Well, after thinking a lot more about it, as well as discussing it with people online and with the other BBTI members when they were here for the recent tests (one of whom has been a Glock armorer for 15+ years) a couple different strategies emerged for me to test. Briefly, those were:
- See whether putting in a heavier mag spring would help
- See whether the problem was due to the case length of the .460 Rowland cartridges (they’re 1/16″ longer than .45 ACP).
- See whether the problem was due to the *power* of the cartridges rather than the length of the cases.
To test the first, it was a simple matter to get a more powerful mag spring and test it in one of the magazines. I picked up a Wolff magazine spring from Midway and did so.
To test whether it was the simple case length of the .460 Rowland cases, I made up some .460 Rowland rounds using .45 ACP reloading standards.
To test whether it was the *power* of the .460 loads but not the case length was another matter. Here’s where we get to the Don’t Try This At Home part of today’s blog post: I made up a number of .45 ACP rounds which were loaded to .460 Rowland specs.
Let me repeat that again: Don’t Try This At Home. These are wildcat rounds, and potentially dangerous. Shooting them in a gun not rated for .460 Rowland stresses could very well result in catastrophic failure of your gun, of the “KABOOM!” variety. Even shooting them in a gun designed to handle .460 Rowland power was risky, since the .45 ACP cases do not have the same strength as the .460 Rowland cases. I made up just 10 rounds of each of these loadings, and was careful to make sure I shot them all, so that they didn’t accidentally wind up in a .45 not strong enough to take the punishment.
Here are each of the loadings I made up, just for reference, along with their approximate chrono results:
- 185gr XTP bullet, .45 ACP case, .460 Rowland power 1480fps
- 200gr RNFP bullet, .45 ACP case, .460 Rowland power 1440fps
- 230gr RNFP bullet, .45 ACP case, .460 Rowland power 1350fps
- 250gr LFN bullet, .45 ACP case, .460 Rowland power 1250fps
- 230gr RNFP bullet, .45 ACP case, .45 ACP power 920fps
- 230gr RNFP bullet, .460 Rowland case, .45 ACP power 925fps
- 185gr XTP bullet, .460 Rowland case, .460 Rowland power 1490fps
- 200gr RNFP bullet, .460 Rowland case, .460 Rowland power 1420fps
- 230gr RNFP bullet, .460 Rowland case, .460 Rowland power 1355fps
- 250gr LFN bullet, .460 Rowland case, .460 Rowland power 1265fps
No, I’m not going to give the specific powder amounts for any of those. I used Hodgdon Longshot powder, and you can look up the specs if you want to know more.
In addition, I had these factory loads on hand for comparison, along with their approximate chrono results:
11. 185gr DPX .45 ACP +P 1110fps
12. 230gr GDHP .45 ACP 850fps
13. 230gr JHP .45 ACP +P1040fps
14. 230gr JHP .460 Rowland 1380fps
15. 255gr LFN .460 Rowland1260fps
OK, a couple of comments before I go further: those are “approximate” chrono readings because I wasn’t being anywhere near as careful as we are when we do formal BBTI testing. To wit: I was just using one chrono; I wasn’t worried about getting the exact same number of readings (so long as I got three or four, I wasn’t too worried about it); and I didn’t do anything to control for consistent lighting or suchlike. But they should all be in the right ballpark.
So, looking over all those, you will see what I see: that there was a remarkable consistency in power levels, whether you’re looking at my reloads or factory loads, and between those rounds which used either .45 ACP cases or .460 Rowland cases. That tells me that following the published data for .460 Rowland reloads, and making some intelligent decisions on how to adapt those to the .45 ACP cases for purposes of this experiment, was by and large successful. Meaning that I can use those loads to fairly evaluate what makes a difference on the basic problem I was investigating: what is causing the magazine damage and how to resolve it.
So, what conclusions did I draw from all this?
First, the more powerful magazine spring seemed to help with consistent loading. I will be swapping out all the Glock 21 mag springs I have. This makes intuitive sense, since the slide is moving faster when shooting the more powerful rounds.
That doing a little customizing on the magazines also seems to help a great deal. Here’s a pic showing an unaltered magazine and one I have taken a Dremel tool to:
Note that these are just the magazine ‘boxes’ — the guts (spring, follower, etc) have all been removed for clarity.
With the altered magazine and stronger spring, any problems I had with Failure To Feed was minimized.
And most important, it is the *power* of the round, not the case length, which seems to cause damage to the unaltered magazines. Shooting the .460 Rowland power loads in the .45 ACP cases demonstrated this. Conversely, shooting the .45 ACP power loads in the .460 Rowland cases didn’t cause any magazine damage at all.
Two additional notes I want to add: the first is that I had pretty consistent problems with the heavy Lead Flat Nose rounds in all configurations. They kept getting jammed up in transitioning from the magazine into the chamber. I’ll probably continue to experiment with this in the future, but I’m not too worried about it, since many guns run into some ammo specific problems.
The second is that once again I was really impressed at just how well this reconfigured Glock 21 did with .45 ACP loads. Seriously, with the .460 Rowland conversion in place, there was very minimal recoil (more than a .22, but not much) and it was VERY easy to control and shoot the gun well. I suspect that going forward the vast majority of the shooting I will do with this will be using standard .45 ACP reloads, saving the much more powerful .460 Rowland rounds for occasional practice. In this sense, I am thinking of the .45/.460 relationship the way I think about .38/.357 — it seems to be a perfectly appropriate analogy.
Now that I have all this sorted, I can go ahead and write up a formal review. But I thought I would share a little of the process of how I got to this point.
I said it before and I’ll repeat it here: if you carry a .45, you should instead be carrying a .460 Rowland.
So, early this year I put in an order for a .460 Rowland conversion kit for a new Gen 4 Glock 21.
I’m planning on doing a full formal review of the kit and the resultant gun, but I thought I’d share some of my experience so far. Why “so far”? Well, because I haven’t worked out all the minor kinks yet.
OK, first thing: it didn’t just take the 3 weeks for delivery which was promised. It wasn’t even 3 months. It was almost six months. And a buddy of mine who ordered his before I ordered mine still hasn’t gotten his. So, there’s that.
Second, and part of the reason for the delay, I didn’t receive a new barrel which was marked .460 Rowland. Rather, I got what looked like a standard Wolff .45 barrel. But it had indeed been rechambered to handle the .460 Rowland cartridge. Before I received the kit I got an email advising me of this problem, and I figured I could just roll with it. This is what I got in the kit:
Going clockwise from the top: That’s the threaded barrel, a screw-on compensator, spring assembly adapter, small serving of red loc-tite, and the heavy spring assembly (which is actually the Gen 3 design, but with the adapter works just fine in my Gen 4).
As advertised by .460 Rowland, the conversion takes like 30 seconds. If you can field strip your Glock, you can do the conversion. I’ve opted for using blue loc-tite rather than red, since it still works well but allows me to remove the compensator easily if I need to.
How does it work? Well, I’ve taken it out to the range several times now, shooting both factory rounds as well as my own reloads. Doing some informal chrono tests, I have gotten exactly the kind of performance promised and expected. The Buffalo Bore 230gr JHP were right at 1300 fps. 200gr RNFP reloads were at 1380 fps, and 185gr XTP (JHP) reloads were at 1410 fps. And those reloads are actually fairly mild — just 12.5gr of Longshot powder — based on what data I’ve seen, I could probably push that to 13.5gr without any risk. (Don’t consider this an endorsement — do your own research, and work up your own loads using published data and standard safety practices.)
Shooting the .460 loads out of the Glock is like shooting a .44 magnum (which I have a fair amount of practice with), but having 13 rounds on tap. Seriously, it’s like flinging thunderbolts with each shot. And the recoil is surprisingly manageable, though I’m not someone who is very recoil shy.
So, why did I say I was still working out the kinks?
Well, there’s a problem with the magazines. Here’s what happened after the first outing:
Look closely on the left side of that magazine, and you’ll see that there’s a tab which has been torn a bit loose and pushed forward. That’s from the force of the .460 cartridges slamming forward. At about this point the magazine would no longer release or insert smoothly. That was after my first outing, with about 60 .460 Rowland shots fired. And actually, I damaged two magazines to that extent with those 60 rounds.
So after that first outing, I took a Dremel tool to the magazines and cut away about 1/8″ of material, and flattened the whole face back into position. Today I took those two magazines back out to the range, and ran about another 50 rounds through the gun using the two of them. Here’s one of them after today’s outing, next to a new unaltered magazine:
More problems. This time, the little metal tab snapped off, as well as distorting the face of magazine again. Clearly, I need to sort out how to fix this.
Two other things I want to mention. One, I tried shooting standard .45ACP cartridges out of the .460 Rowland conversion. They work wonderfully. Seriously, there’s almost no recoil, the gun cycles just fine (with my mild reloads as well as factory +P self defense ammo), and there’s no accuracy loss that I could determine casually shooting the gun. So, that’s a plus.
But the other thing? Heh — take a look at what happened with my front site today:
Yeah, it really shouldn’t be facing that way, nor sticking up quite so much. But I can fix that easily enough.
If you have thoughts on how I can correct the magazine problem, I’d love to hear ‘em.
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